Fundamentalist Dialogues Part 4

This could be funny, if it weren’t for the sad fact that evangelists like V are free to spread their homophobic rhetoric under the aegis of the church. He hasn’t yet given up on Leviticus 18:22, but now he has switched to the New International Version from the King James. Remember how earlier he acted as though he didn’t know what the NIV had to say about Deuteronomy 23:17?

Now he has also attempted to elevate interpretive footnotes to the same status as the Bible, all the while ignoring the latest footnotes from the New Oxford Annotated Bible that I gave to him last week. The New Oxford Annotated is the later translation. By the way, the New Oxford Annotated footnotes on Leviticus 18:22 indicate that the condemnation appears to be a condemnation of male to male rape–a common occurrence committed to demonstrate power over a vanquished opponent.

I am sure you have read the NIV - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable." Lev. 18:22. Footnote - Homosexuality is clearly forbidden.
I thought you said the Bible said nothing about homosexuality?
Lev. 20:13 If a man lies with a woman, both of them have done what is destestable. The must be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads."

I was amazed at your answer in Rom. 1 that this was idolatry, but it was more that, and you know it.

Then the word "homosexual offenders" is in 1 Cor. 6:10, and they were this but they had been washed, sanctified and were justified.

Now I am still waiting for you to fine just ONE TIME that homosexuality is permitted.
1 Cor. 10:23 does not make your case! No apostle approved it, and no Christian practiced it!

You cannot find one single gay couple allowed to live together in the Bible!
You cannot find God allowing same sex marriages or union.
You know it.

;Now, God sent His son to die on the cross for our sins - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom. 5:8

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1 Jn. 4 9-10

JESUS LOVED US SO MUCH THAT AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, HE GAVE THE APOSTLES THE GREAT COMMISSION;

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15-16

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lu. 24:46-47

3,000 who had caused Jesus to be crucified were told: Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36 When they heard this they said, Men & brethren what shall we do? 2:37

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand soul They were added to the church - Acts 2:47.

The CORINTHIANS: And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. Acts 18:8.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor malekos nor arsenkoites, (my correction–revy)
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

WHAT A WONDERFUL GOD AND SAVIOR WE HAVE!

SALVATION IS ONLY IN CHRIST - ACTS 4:12
ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE IN CHRIST - EPH. 1:3
REDEMPTION AND FORGIVENSS OF SINS ARE IN CHRIST - EPH. 1:7
AN INHERITANCE AWAITS THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST - EPH. 1:11; 1 PET. 1:3-5

WE ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST - ROM. 6:3-4 GAL. 3:26-27

It was a joy to have this occasion to discuss God's word with you. I hope we can do it again. I would like to meet you if you are not too far away. If you could come to our services, you are welcome.

V writes: I am sure you have read the NIV - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable." Lev. 18:22. Footnote - Homosexuality is clearly forbidden.
I thought you said the Bible said nothing about homosexuality?
Lev. 20:13 If a man lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. The must be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads."

Rev. Y responds: V, it does no good for you to feign ignorance. This is not about you and me–it is about you and God. There were no footnotes in the original languages–the footnotes were added by various translator/interpreters–and you've already been given what the New Oxford Annotated says about the subject. You can afford to ignore me, but you ignore the latest scholarship of Oxford University at your own peril. When you lie about God and malign a whole body of God's innocent children, you will have to face God about that. What excuse will you give God then? Do you want to have the loss of someone's soul on your conscience when you face God? Even if that person is a homosexual? When you persist in teaching your point of view, you put untold pressure on the homosexual's spirit. Since they cannot change who they are, many lose faith in the idea of a loving God and come to believe that, if God really exists, then God must be some kind of monster. They turn their backs on God. They become agnostics, atheists, pagans. Why? Because they are evil? No. Because people like you have lied to them–told them they have no right to love–no right to have a fulfilling relationship with another human being.

Once you may have been blind, but now the evidence has been given you. Conscience demands that you THOROUGHLY investigate what you've been given, to be sure that you haven't made a mis-step. The reality is that you have. Talk to other churches and denominations–talk to the ones who have become "open and affirming," and ask them why they have done so. It says a lot when denominations of primarily heterosexual churches rethink and research the texts, and come to the conclusion that there is no condemnation of homosexuality in scriptures.

It occurs to me, V, that since you seem to be so focused on Leviticus, and stressing on me the necessity of living up to the criteria established by it, to ascertain from you if you follow the Law as spelled out in the Hebrew Scriptures yourself? After all, if you are going to require it of me and my people, then you must also require it of yourself. Isn’t that true?

Are you careful not to wear clothing woven of two kinds of material (Lev. 19:19); Do you not allow your hair to be cut at the sides of your head, or do you leave your beard untrimmed? (Lev. 19:27) (By the way, this restriction has to do with idolatry–in case you didn’t know); Do you keep kosher? Do you make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and birds, and do you refrain from eating those that are unclean? (Lev. 20:25) Do you believe and teach that any of your people with any kind of defect or deformity are not welcome to present offerings to God? (Lev. 21:16-21) Are you careful to observe every jot and tittle of the Law?

If you are going to require others to keep the Law, then you, too, are under obligation to keep the same Law. And if you keep any part of the Law, don’t you know that you are then required to keep the whole of the Law? Both Deuteronomy 27:26, and again in the New Testament quoted by Paul in Galatians, 3:10 & 11: "All who rely on observing the Law are under a curse, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the book of the Law.’ Clearly, no one is justified before God by the Law, because ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’" (Hab. 2:4)

If you insist on forcing the Law down our throats, V, then you are only creating problems for yourself, because in doing so you are binding yourself to the Law. We live by faith, not by the Law. We are justified through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus told us that all of the Law is summed up in the instruction to love God, love our neighbor, and to love ourselves. (Mark12:29, 30; Matt. 22:37, 38). Jesus said that on just these things hang ALL the Law and the Prophets. I’m sure it is a lesson you learned once. Perhaps you need to be reminded again.

V writes: I was amazed at your answer in Rom. 1 that this was idolatry, but it was more that, and you know it.

Rev. Y responds: I didn't write Romans. Paul did. It was Paul who said it was ALL about idolatry. You'll have to argue with him.

V writes: Then the word "homosexual offenders" is in 1 Cor. 6:10, and they were this but they had been washed, sanctified and were justified.

V writes: Now I am still waiting for you to fine just ONE TIME that homosexuality is permitted.
1 Cor. 10:23 does not make your case! No apostle approved it, and no Christian practiced it!

Rev. Y responds: What was it that Jesus said? Oh, yes. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your neighbor's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your neighbor, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your neighbor's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

V writes: You cannot find one single gay couple allowed to live together in the Bible!
You cannot find God allowing same sex marriages or union.
You know it.

Rev. Y responds: We've been through all of this AND YOU KNOW IT! The Bible doesn't mention Asians, North America, or aborigines, either, but that doesn't mean that they were not allowed to exist. The truth of the matter is that the subject of homosexuals and homosexuality as we know it today is not in any way condemned in the Bible. You're just stuck because I've proven it to you with no shadow of a doubt.

You may have been blind to that truth when you first wrote me, but now you see! Knowledge is like a sexual encounter. Once you have experienced it, you cannot go back and say it didn't happen. You are marked for life.

I warn you, brother, that it is incumbent upon your own salvation, if you did not know the truth before, to do your own research, and research well, before you say one other negative or condemnatory word about homosexuality or homosexuals. You will be held accountable to God for every person you deceive. When you are given the truth and you choose to ignore it to the detriment of others, you become, in a way, an idolater. You have placed yourself above God. "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of those who SUPPRESS THE TRUTH by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them." (Romans 1:18-19)

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." (Romans 2:1)

When you pass judgment on another you usurp God's right and in doing so also make yourself an idolater.

"Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape judgment? Or do you show contempt for the richness of God's kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing God's kindness leads you toward repentance?" (Romans 2:2-4)

When you tell lies about what the Bible says, when you condemn homosexuals simply for being who they are, when you tell them they are not entitled to the same rights of sharing love, affection, comfort and compassion with another person to whom they relate, regardless of gender, you malign God. You insult God. You are making out God to be a monster. You are engaging in idolatry.

"Because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. God 'will give to each person according to what he or she has done.' To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, God will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." (Romans 2:5-8)

V. writes: Now, God sent His son to die on the cross for our sins - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom. 5:8

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1 Jn. 4 9-10

JESUS LOVED US SO MUCH THAT AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, HE GAVE THE APOSTLES THE GREAT COMMISSION;

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15-16

The CORINTHIANS: And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. Acts 18:8.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor malekos nor arsenkoites, (my correction–revy)
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

WHAT A WONDERFUL GOD AND SAVIOR WE HAVE!
SALVATION IS ONLY IN CHRIST - ACTS 4:12
ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE IN CHRIST - EPH. 1:3
REDEMPTION AND FORGIVENSS OF SINS ARE IN CHRIST - EPH. 1:7
AN INHERITANCE AWAITS THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST - EPH. 1:11; 1 PET. 1:3-5
WE ARE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST - ROM. 6:3-4 GAL. 3:26-27

It was a joy to have this occasion to discuss God's word with you. I hope we can do it again. I would like to meet you if you are not too far away. If you could come to our services, you are welcome.

Rev. Y. responds: I live on the other side of the country, V, so it is not possible for me to come to your services. You, however, are welcome to come to mine. If you would like, I can place your name on our bible study list of participants, so that when we start up again in September, you will automatically receive a new study via email every weekend. We will be starting on the second year of Jesus' ministry. We've already completed this first year, and you will find it on the website.

God bless.
Rev. Yvette Dube

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Of Metropolitan Community Churches

The Fundamentalist Dialogues

Part 4